Episode #7 ADOA podcast: Mobile educational supervisor Hanneke Kemp

Below you will find the transcript of this podcast.

00:00:03
Maud: Welcome to the ADOA Podcast. ADOA is a very rare hereditary eye condition. My name is Maud van Gerwen and I am here with…

00:00:11
Lion: Leon Augustijn. Together we will talk to professionals and experts about their view on ADOA. Welcome to this podcast.

00:00:21
Maud: Hello! Today we are here with Hanneke, Hanneke Kemp. Welcome!

00:00:26
Hanneke: Thank you.

00:00:27
Lion: Yes, welcome!

00:00:27
Hanneke: Thank you.

00:00:28
Maud: Can you tell us something about yourself, Hanneke? Who you are? What you do?

00:00:33
Hanneke: Yes, I am Hanneke Kemp. I work as a policy officer at the Primary Education Collaboration in the Nieuwegein region. And before that, I worked at Bartiméus for eight years as an ambulant educational supervisor. In that role, I mainly went to schools to support pupils with a visual impairment, and I worked as a support coordinator here at the Esso in Zeist, where we are now.

00:01:06
Lion: And what did you do practically?

00:01:08
Hanneke: What did I do practically? For what?

00:01:11
Lion: What did you do at Bartiméus?

00:01:14
Hanneke: As an outpatient educational supervisor, I went to schools, to regular primary schools, where I guided students as best as possible to be able to function within regular education, to be able to develop, to develop themselves in fact, to participate.

00:01:37
Lion: Yes, how did you do that? For example with people or children who were visually impaired?

00:01:42
Hanneke: Of course I really came because there was a visual impairment, so for that reason I also went into the schools, and I spoke to parents, to the child, to the school team, to map out: "What does the visual impairment entail?" What I did then is actually make them realize: "What is different about the guidance of this student than all the other students in your class? And what do you need to take into account more, but still provide guidance in such a way that the autonomy of the student is really still very strong?" So think for a moment, a student who is so visually impaired that you can actually call him blind, ends up in a nursery class. For many teachers that is actually new, because you don't experience that every day, so in such a team there is also something like: "What is happening?" And that student comes into the classroom, and then all kinds of provisions are made. So the child is taken to the classroom, work is put down for the student. And what I then came to do in that class is first to see: "How does that work?", because every class is set up differently, every teacher does it in their own way, and then take the teacher along in: "Hey, what does it mean for the child when you approach it like this?" So think for a moment, there is a group of children who are making clay, and all those children see that bowl of clay in the middle of that table, they all start to grab it, they take out all the tools that you need for making clay, they make a nice figure. And a student that I was supervising, he had a ball of clay in front of him, that had been given to him, and he is just pressing with that clay. Of course that is perfectly fine if you do that in the beginning to experience it, but at a certain point you also want a kind of development to occur there, and that the student actually has the same possibilities as all the other children who are already flying on that beautiful material in one go, because they want to use it, because they want to cut into it with a knife or make a relief in it. Then you explain to them that they have to provide some kind of stimulus, so that the child who is working with the clay knows that other materials can be used, because that is not within the field of vision, so that is not there for the child at that moment. So you try to involve the school in that as much as possible, like: "Hey, but if you really put that child at the table, then it means that you have to give some extra explanation, so you have to say: "What materials can you use? And how do you use it?" Because they can't just peek at the other students to see: "Oh, but are you going to do that? That looks cool! I'm also going to make a snowman, so roll two balls on top of each other. Oh, do you roll by rubbing your hands together?" These are all things that you have to explain a bit more and include, and especially not so specifically on one subject, but overall say, more from: “Also think about what you miss if you don’t get everything? And how can we support that as best as possible so that you get the same opportunities?”

00:05:14
Lion: Suppose I'm listening now, and I hear this, and I think: “Well, I also have a number of children at my school who are close to blind, how can I involve the teacher in this?”

00:05:35
Hanneke: Especially by talking to the child. Look at the student, and don't look first at the student is blind, but first look at what this student can do very well. For example, I have had a number of children who are really very strong verbally, which you often see. Use that strength to stimulate that too, because that is actually where self-reliance lies in the first place. So everything you are good at, bring that forward even better, because that just gives you a real feeling of greater self-esteem because you know: "Oh, but I am good at this. I can pick this up in a good way". So look from there and add to that point where you think: "Hey, but if I don't add something to this, then you are missing out". So think about when a student enters a new classroom, or enters the gym – that changes each time, the classroom is usually fixed, but at the beginning of the year it is often completely new – take that student with you without all the other children in a classroom to explain: “Where is your own spot? How do you get from your spot to the teacher's desk? How do you get your notebook? Where are all the things in the classroom without there being a lot of them there?” So take the child with you without everyone having to know about it, but just to actually stimulate that bit of autonomy and that bit of self-reliance. And you can let that go afterwards, so that the child can also practice it themselves.

So think about when a student enters a new classroom or enters the gym. That's where it is That changes every time. The classroom is usually fixed, but at the beginning of the year it is often completely new. Take that student with you for a moment without all the other children being in a classroom. To explain where is your own spot? How do you get from your spot? To the teacher's desk? How do you get your notebook? Where are all the things in the classroom without there being a lot there? So take the child with you without everyone having to know about it, but just to stimulate that bit of autonomy and that bit of self-reliance. And then you can also let go again, so that the child can also practice it themselves.

00:07:07
Lion: Yes, in the preliminary interview you also said that you had blindfolded teachers before and that they had to experience that for themselves.

00:07:15
Hanneke: Yes / Yes.

00:07:15
Lion: What did that do to those teachers?

00:07:18
Hanneke: They are often shocked, and they experience in particular how much extra time it takes. And they then have the experience – and fortunately we do not blindfold, but with simulation glasses on – they then actually experience how exciting it is to take new steps, to hold your own in unfamiliar environments, and that you need something to experience that stability in order to be able to continue. And that is very helpful in that daily realization, because as an itinerant educational supervisor you are not in the classroom all day, you actually only come to support factions, so you should not want to take over, but want to demonstrate how you support correctly, so that it can also be taken over in the classroom by, for example, additional formation teachers.

00:08:13
Maud: You take the teachers along with you, but do you do that with the rest of the class? That other children get a better understanding of their classmate?

00:08:23
Hanneke: Yes, definitely. You do that often, all the educational supervisors do that, they also have that as standard in their program. We have special children's glasses to experience that, so we take a whole suitcase with us, and also a whole suitcase with experience tools, with games. "What is it like when you are sighted? And what if you are not so sighted and you are playing memory, and one sees the pictures very quickly, and the other has to dive in completely? What is that like for your classmate?" So to do those experiences, we often only do that from group three or four, because it can also feel very threatening for toddlers when you gain that experience. They do not yet fully realize what is there in that period of time, it can suddenly happen to them, they have the feeling. So we often do that at a slightly older age, so that that realization is a bit better.

00:09:15
Lion: And I hear you say: “Autonomy”. Look, I am really in favor of that, that it is good, that a child gets that well, and that same self-reliance. But I can also imagine that parents are very protective. So how do you deal with that as a school? And as a teacher? Because I can imagine that you say: “Well, that is a very tough approach”.

00:09:38
Hanneke: Yes, yes. What you see is that parents at the moment when a child is still really young – and I think that applies to all parents, and especially if there is perhaps a limitation – you actually want to follow a path for your child that has as few bumps as possible. So then you start to pick things up while you notice that when you dare to let go a little more, a child can make better steps in that. And of course we also have the proverb: “You learn by trial and error”, only you actually want a child to fall as little as possible, that is what we all actually want. But it is very appropriate, and it does not mean that you cannot reach out, but you do want as much as possible that children actually have the same opportunities, because that is also about equal opportunities. If you take too much away from a child, then the child cannot develop as well. If they want a certain toy, do you always go and get it instead of teaching the child to go and get it themselves? Then you also take away something of development in order to solve it yourself. So it is very helpful for the development of your son or daughter to dare to distance yourself from it now and then, in a safe setting, because that is of course always important. You must always be a safe base.

00:11:14
Maud: Yeah yeah, I get it.

00:11:15
Lion: And Maud, how was that for you? Because now you're further along.

00:11:21
Maud: Yes, exactly. Well, I never had this kind of help at school, and I think I saw a little better than the average children you coached. But no, I basically figured it out myself, and also through trial and error, and it turned out fine.

00:11:39
Hanneke: Yes, and I think that varies a lot. Of course, you always have your own character traits, so one child – and you see that too, and you always adapt your guidance to that – is very exploratory, and goes by himself, and the other child is a bit more reserved and timid, and you have to challenge him a bit more to do that himself and stimulate him to make his own choices in that. And that is actually that scale, you have all the time, which is why no guidance looks the same.

00:12:10
Maud: Exactly, because you just gave the example of those toddlers with the clay, but what is that like when they are a bit further along? What kind of guidance or tools should we think of then?

00:12:24
Hanneke: Yes, that does indeed vary a lot, but also consider: “If the children go outside during recess, because they are going to play outside, and you cannot recognize everyone from your view”, then it is very helpful, for example, to make an appointment in advance with a friend or girlfriend where you are going to play. A teacher can always arrange that. But actually we try to place that responsibility with the child as much as possible, because if the child is alert to make those arrangements in the safe situation of that classroom – in which you still have that overview: “Shall we go and play there?”, then you also give something in that direction for secondary education, or perhaps even for your job, that you dare to ask for that help, but also know when it is useful to focus on something that will happen next in good time.

00:13:24
Maud: Yes, definitely. I recognize that, yes.

00:13:26
Hanneke: And in that you want as little as possible that accessory of that teacher, if it is difficult to give that push in the back, but to take a step back more and more. And that is actually what you are busy with all the time as an itinerant educational supervisor, because you actually want to make yourself redundant, that is what you want.

00:13:44
Maud: Yes. And what about reading braille or something? Is that something they learn at regular or regular school? Or are they going to do that at Bartiméus?

00:13:57
Hanneke: No, they really do learn that at regular school. And that is complicated for many teachers, because children are already really busy learning letters in the nursery group. Then you already have a house that has to be filled with everything with the letter A. The pupils who will later be dependent on braille can also participate in that perfectly well. But they are also really recognizing all those letters, and you often see a whole line of letters hanging somewhere in the classroom. And we say about that if you are bad - well, for example, if you can see below 10% - then that line of letters hanging at the top of the classroom is not helpful at all. So where you assume that other children come in and they say to their father and mother: "Look mom, there are all those letters hanging there", that is often much too far away for a pupil who can see below 10%. And if you can see below 5% - when you are more dependent on braille - then that is not visible at all. And for the nursery school teachers, it is where they are very busy teaching letters, we do not do that in Braille at all. So they find that very complicated, because they actually want that when they have taught the letter A to the group, that a Braille student also learns to recognize that letter A, for example. Only where reading in black print and reading in Braille start to diverge, is that when reading Braille you mainly have your training in developing your touch, so making sure that those small differences are well felt in your fingers. So what we are going to do is the preparation for Braille in the nursery class, that is actually only about activating that tactile skill and feeling small differences. So you are not yet working with the letters at all, except in sounds and taking a word apart, but for the rest not at all with teaching and really only with that touch. And teachers find that very difficult, because then they feel that they are not going fast enough, while we have experienced that if you have developed your sense of touch well in those nursery groups, then reading Braille goes like a rocket afterwards, because they are often smart enough to pick up those letters and those small differences very quickly.

00:16:23
Maud1: Yes, that is of course really different from the rest of the class. Exactly.

00:16:29
Hanneke: Exactly, yes. And that means that there is a different program for a while, while in general you actually want to have the same program as much as possible. And that is also why there is often some extra training available, so that when the class is really only working on the letter, so that is different from taking apart a word like "branch", "What was the first letter you hear? What is the last letter you hear?", they can just participate in that. But the moment that a letter is really practiced as the black print sign, then you see that at that moment the teaching assistant who is extra in the class is already doing some extra practice on that tactile skill.

00:17:10
Maud: Yes, okay. And here we are at Bartiméus, and I see all the children in the classrooms, it is of course also a school, where is the limit actually? Or is there a certain percentage of vision, for example? From: "When does a child go to regular education, and when would he be better off going to Bartiméus or Visio?"

00:17:32
Hanneke: So we don't have such a hard line. Of course, as Bartiméus we have a considerable region from which the pupils flow into the school here, but the school is only very small, because there are at most thirty pupils I think. So that is really only very small, while we cover a large part of the entire central Netherlands. There is another cluster 1 school in Amsterdam. So we cover quite a part of the region. But that boundary does not exist, because we say... From cluster 1 we really have the vision to go to school as much as possible within your own neighbourhood, as close to home as possible, precisely because that is where your friends are, your contacts are, you can more easily meet up with other children after school. And the children who mostly go to school here really need some extra guidance than can be offered within regular education, with some extra staff. So on top of that they need some extra support because there are some other issues at play, or because that feels more comfortable.

00:18:51
Lion: Yes, I can also imagine that if you, as a parent, have a child who is visually impaired, and who is in a school, and that a class with thirty pupils needs extra attention, special time needs to be made for it, that the school might say: "Well, that child would be better off in special education". And that you, as a parent, also think: "Yes, then my child will get more attention". So how do you deal with those kinds of issues that raise those dilemmas?

00:19:21
Maud: Are they welcome at every school indeed?

00:19:23
Hanneke: Yes, and that is those are the conversations that are often held in advance, because I myself as an itinerant educational supervisor do not have that much to do with that, because an itinerant supervisor is involved in that preschool trajectory. So that actually supports the parents in that period of years from 0 to 4 years, and they also enter into those first conversations with those schools in the neighborhood. And yet I do notice that a lot of schools are positive about the guidance, also with the knowledge: "Oh, we are getting some extra financial possibilities, so we can also offer some extra support in that, let's just go for it together". And that commitment you really need it. So I once had a school where I started the conversation in the school team in a later year, so in group 1 and 2 it was said: "Oh, we can guide these students really well, we like it, we really want to go for it as a team, so we all give our commitment on it”. And in group 5 I noticed that something changed, that there was more thinking in terms of problems instead of possibilities. And you really have to want to see those possibilities again and want to see those qualities, and want to build on that. And then I also started with such an experience afternoon, and by talking about it with the team, from: “Where are those opportunities now? Where are the possibilities of this student?”. Again, together we started to establish that commitment. “Are we going to tackle this together? Are we going to put our shoulders to the wheel? Because do we also want to tackle this properly?” You also have to do that a little bit gut feeling. to see that this is necessary as an intervention at that moment.

00:21:11
Lion: And what do you think is still needed to achieve that connection even better for…

00:21:20
Hanneke: Yes, technology is moving very fast, so I see a lot of possibilities there, also for schools. Because let's be honest, on a laptop you are actually no different from a lot of other students. I enter a lot of classes where all the children are working on the laptop and with a braille student or a visually impaired student, only the screen is suddenly enlarged, or there is a braille reading line in front of it that is supportive. But the technology is very helpful in what makes education a lot easier, especially for visually impaired students.

00:21:59
Maud: Yes, great. And can you perhaps give an example of something you are really proud of? That you really helped a student forward, or… That you have an example of that?

00:22:13
Hanneke: Yes, I am proud of all my students, because I have always enjoyed it. And of course we just walked through the corridors here, and then I also got a hug here and there, or a kind word from a student. But what I really always find very nice, is when at some point the penny drops, and that I come back to a school after a period, and that I then hear, for example, that a student has obtained his typing diploma - so that he can type blindly -, or that there is something lucky, or that a good grade has been obtained that the student is especially super proud of, or that he has made a drawing, or has made a craft completely in his own way that he then wants to show me. And then I think: "Yes, those are the moments when I really see that things are going well". And now I am slowly also hearing feedback from students who have now completed secondary education. And yes, then I just get very happy from those success stories, that they are now also heading towards a job. Then I think: "Yes, that is what we really want together, isn't it?"

00:23:25
Maud: Yes, that's what you do it for.

00:23:26
Hanneke: That's what you do it for in the end. Yes, I just get happy every time, so I don't really have anything specific. But when I see that a child feels competent, that he is happy, that things are going well, that things are going well, that he doesn't start doubting himself, then I think: "Yes, then we are on the right track". And when I see that some doubt arises, then I always run a little faster, because then I am inclined to make sure that it is reversed. That is not how a child learns to develop, with doubt.

00:24:00
Lion: Well done, thank you!

00:24:02
Hanneke: Yes, you're welcome!

00:24:03
Maud: Thank you!

00:24:04
Lion: Thanks for listening to this podcast.

00:24:07
Maud: If you have any questions or would like to chat, please contact us via our website www.adoa.eu